| Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13007] |
Fri, 16 January 2015 12:23  |
Ross Russo
Messages: 278
Registered: April 2011
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Senior Member |
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Just wondering if there's any interest in getting a bunch of us together and making a trip across the Atlantic to do a bit of sightseeing in jolly old Europe. Obviously, this would be a summertime adventure, and it's probably too late to make plans for the summer of '15. However, the summer of Sweet '16 might be a player.
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| Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13015] |
Fri, 16 January 2015 13:41  |
Ross Russo
Messages: 278
Registered: April 2011
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Senior Member |
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Tony -- I think the longest leg is somewhere around 675nm (based on my recollection of a long-ago discussion with Mike Laver). Typical winds in the summer aren't that bad. Mike Laver's made the crossing many times in many models of the MU-2, and he's still here, so it must be doable. <g>
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| Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13017] |
Fri, 16 January 2015 13:50 |
mciholas
Messages: 1588
Registered: April 2011
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Senior Member |
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Ross Russo wrote:
Quote:Just wondering if there's any interest in getting a bunch of us together and
making a trip across the Atlantic to do a bit of sightseeing in jolly old
Europe.
I am very interested.
Part of this is that I will be living in central England for 4 months
come fall of 2016. My wife will be a professor for one term at
Harlaxton College:
http://www.ueharlax.ac.uk/
We get to stay in the manor house. Think of it as Hogwarts (the train
to it even departs Kings Cross).
I am very curious what it would be like to bring the MU2 with me. My
primary concerns are dealing with IFR flying in Europe. Fuel prices
are remarkably cheap even after VAT (unlike 100LL). Finding a place
to park the airplane isn't too hard either. I just need to understand
how to file and fly EU IFR flights and how to handle customs, arrival,
etc, at the destination airports. I'm sure this is nothing terribly
complex, I just don't have any experience with it. Are there any good
guides or books on this?
So summer of 2016 would be perfect. If towards the end of summer,
then I might stay over there. The part of the trip I worry about most
is return in late December over the north atlantic. I can be very
selective about which day to minimize weather problems.
Jon Carlson recently did an Iceland trip, nice write up in the MU2 mag
this month. His input would be useful!
--
Mike Ciholas 812 962 9408
CIHOLAS, Inc 812 962 9401 fax
3700 Bell Road mikec@ciholas.com
Newburgh, IN 47630 http://www.ciholas.com
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| Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13018] |
Fri, 16 January 2015 13:52 |
mciholas
Messages: 1588
Registered: April 2011
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Senior Member |
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What equipment do we need?
Do we need HF radios?
Do we need ADS-B out?
Do we need DME?
Do we need ADF?
Do we need life rafts?
Some of this will take time to prepare, so thinking about it now is worthwhile.
--
Mike Ciholas 812 962 9408
CIHOLAS, Inc 812 962 9401 fax
3700 Bell Road mikec@ciholas.com
Newburgh, IN 47630 http://www.ciholas.com
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| Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13020] |
Fri, 16 January 2015 14:06 |
Nicola Laurenzi
Messages: 265
Registered: July 2013
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Senior Member |
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Whowwwwww! If you decide to come to North of Italy and expecially in the Dolomiti Mountains (nice place to fly) it would be really awesome to meet all of you.
Il venerdì 16 gennaio 2015, Ciholas, Mike <mikec@ciholas.com (mikec@ciholas.com)> ha scritto:
[quote]What equipment do we need?
Do we need HF radios?
Do we need ADS-B out?
Do we need DME?
Do we need ADF?
Do we need life rafts?
Some of this will take time to prepare, so thinking about it now is worthwhile.
--
Mike Ciholas 812 962 9408
CIHOLAS, Inc 812 962 9401 fax
3700 Bell Road [url=javascript:;]mikec@ciholas.com[/url]
Newburgh, IN 47630 http://www.ciholas.com
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| Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13021] |
Fri, 16 January 2015 14:24 |
Nicola Laurenzi
Messages: 265
Registered: July 2013
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Senior Member |
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Whowwwwww! If you decide to come to North of Italy and expecially in the Dolomiti Mountains (nice place to fly) it would be awesome to meet all of you.
Il venerdì 16 gennaio 2015, Ciholas, Mike <[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mikec@ciholas.com');]mikec@ciholas.com[/url]> ha scritto:
[quote]What equipment do we need?
Do we need HF radios?
Do we need ADS-B out?
Do we need DME?
Do we need ADF?
Do we need life rafts?
Some of this will take time to prepare, so thinking about it now is worthwhile.
--
Mike Ciholas 812 962 9408
CIHOLAS, Inc 812 962 9401 fax
3700 Bell Road mikec@ciholas.com
Newburgh, IN 47630 http://www.ciholas.com
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| Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13022] |
Fri, 16 January 2015 14:38 |
Rand Snell
Messages: 110
Registered: April 2014
Location: St. Pete/Tampa - Washingt...
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Senior Member |
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You bet! N19GA would enjoy a visit to her early haunts, and I'm looking to operate part of the year in Germany and Spain.
N19GA
N15VK
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| Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13024] |
Fri, 16 January 2015 17:36 |
joncarlson
Messages: 516
Registered: April 2011
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Senior Member |
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Hi all,
When I did my Iceland trip, I did all planning myself, which is some amount of effort. Ultimately it is pretty do-able even for a first timer, but can require a lot of web searching. I think if one were to go to more exotic locales one may want a professional handler service in case of getting in trouble with local issues, but I figured I was going to be only traversing 1st world, English speaking countries, so I couldn't get myself into too much trouble. Not using a handler saved me something on the order of $5K.
It is some work to really track down what you are required to have by all the parties involved, specifically FAA, ICAO, NavCanada, Greenland and Iceland (and eventually Great Britain and onward). For the most part ICAO covers most of it, or defers to country of registration (so FAA for most of us).
Answers to the specific questions:
- HF Radios?
There are two routes which are legal to fly across the North Atlantic VHF only. Roughly, CYFB-BGSF-BIRK, which can be done at a relatively low altitude (don't recall floor off the cuff), and CYYR-BGBW-BIRK which is allowed VHF at FL250 and above. Otherwise you are supposed to have HF. There was a white paper from ICAO floating around that talked about allowing SatPhones as substitute, and there were ATC phone#s in place, etc. But legally you had to have HF with Selcal I believe. In practice, cell phone worked well for position reports (better than HF in practice near as I could tell).
- ADS-B Out?
I don't think ADS-B out is required, at least for the North Atlantic. Europe's an issue I didn't tackle. They may require mode S, IIRC.
- DME?
I think in Europe DME is required. GPS works fine of course. But I don't think it's a legal substitute.
- ADF?
ADF is required for northernmost reaches of Canada, and I don't think GPS was a legal substitute, but I didn't get that far north in Canada. Crossing the Atlantic, Greenland has only NDBs, IIRC (I don't think they have any VORs). Significantly, Narsarsuaq (BGBW) only has an NDB-DME approach. FWIW, the approach is in the GNS4/530W database, and the GNS units fly it just fine (while you monitor the ADF of course!  .
- Life rafts/survival equipment?
I rented a life raft from Far North Aviation (http://www.scottishfbo.com/survival.htm), based in Wick, but they allow pick up and drop off in Goose Bay (and Wick on the other end). They can also rent survival suits. That said, I wasn't certain they were strictly required for Part 91 flight in a twin turbine. NavCanada regs clearly require survival suits plus rafts for the Atlantic crossing in single engine aircraft, but their regulations are more lenient for twins that are able to maintain altitude. FAA regulation for oceanic overflight would apply for an N registered aircraft, and IIRC for part 91 it's not required.
An interesting additional PITA twist on the raft, which I only learned upon picking it up in Goose Bay, is that the raft requires being declared as an item of import for Canadian customs. This meant I was strictly required to have Canadian customs meet me at the aircraft to check in the raft at Goose Bay (I remember thinking I couldn't go into Iqaluit because of it also). Other than that, clearing Canadian customs would have been nothing more than calling the 800 number upon arrival. So the raft rental does impose an inconvenience penalty. I'm undecided whether I would do it again if I had it to do over. I also think it wouldn't do much pragmatic good without survival suits, and I was unwilling to make the whole family wear survival suits (I'd have had a rebellion on hand). So... to some degree having a twin turbine is probably the best option in the first place.
A couple web sites which were useful for pragmatic tips:
http://xpda.com/flyingtoeurope/ (growing a little old, but still lots of useful links and pragmatic advice)
http://220kts.com/ferry-flights/atlantic-ferry-flights/ (also useful pragmatic advice from a ferry pilot)
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/afs400/afs470/media/NAT.pdf (FAA North Atlantic resource guide)
http://www.icao.int/EURNAT/EUR%20and%20NAT%20Documents/NAT%20Documents/NAT%20Doc%20007/_NAT%20Doc007_Edition%202013%20with%20%20bkmrks.pdf (ICAO NAT manual)
http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca-publications/3-AIM-COM-E.pdf (NavCanada doc which contains lots of info on comm equipment required)
http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca-publications/5-AIM-RAC-E.pdf (NavCanada ops regulations, see section 11.0 for North Atlantic regs)
That's off the top of my head, happy reading!
-Jon C.
-Jon C.
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| Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13026] |
Fri, 16 January 2015 18:03 |
joncarlson
Messages: 516
Registered: April 2011
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Senior Member |
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Understood, though there’s an element of interest in learning the basic rules and regs for the various countries and knowing the issues involved oneself. Kind of tedious at times, but also some interest.
-Jon
From: Mu2list [mailto:mu2list-bounces@mailman.mu-2aopa.com] On Behalf Of ken murphy
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 2:43 PM
To: MU-2 Mailing List
Subject: Re: [MU-2 list] Group Trip Across the Atlantic
I'm thinking a handler handling a group of like aircraft would ultimately be realitively affordable. I know the TBM guys etc do a similar group trip so it'd be easy to line up something similar with that type of handler. I'm lazy, I don't want to turn it into a ton of busy work...takes all the fun out of it!
-Jon C.
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| Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13027] |
Fri, 16 January 2015 18:20 |
Rick Veley
Messages: 329
Registered: December 2013
Location: Boerne, Texas
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Senior Member |
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This trip is something that might just be of interest to me. I have made the crossing many times, but I was coddled by company dispatchers and flew nonstop using ETOPS regs. It would be a real eye opener for my wife and she showed an interest in it. I would need her anyway - to bring me my coffee and meals then verbally abuse and ignore me so that I feel like a normal crossing.
I would have to check with the company dispatchers, but there is a possibility that they could help out on some level.
The real twist involved would also be in getting more than 1 person to agree on a date going and coming and then where all the group went.
Personally I like the idea of having a raft and most likely also survival suits.
Rick
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| Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13030] |
Fri, 16 January 2015 22:45 |
Ross Russo
Messages: 278
Registered: April 2011
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Senior Member |
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I don't know if any of you remember a thing called the Cayman Caravan. It was a trip from Key West, over Cuba, to Grand Cayman. Paul Bertorelli (Aviation Consumer, IFR Magazine) and I were the organizers, and we did it for around 15 years or so. Our biggest year had 125 airplanes making the crossing. I've had a bit of experience with groups making international overwater flights, albeit not over the North Atlantic.
In reality, there's no need for everyone to make the crossing at exactly the same time -- people can pair up (or gang up) based on their individual schedules. I'd want to go at the same times as Ken Murphy, 'cause he's a wild man and would probably buy drinks (once he's had a few). Oh yeah, Tim Stanley too.
Same goes for schedules once we're in Europe. Sharing our itineraries would make it pretty easy for people to get together for common destinations.
Returns are even easier, since we'll already have been through the same airports and procedures on the way east.
I'm thinking I'd like to take about two weeks for the whole trip.
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