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Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13007] Fri, 16 January 2015 12:23 Go to next message
Ross Russo
Messages: 277
Registered: April 2011
Senior Member
Just wondering if there's any interest in getting a bunch of us together and making a trip across the Atlantic to do a bit of sightseeing in jolly old Europe. Obviously, this would be a summertime adventure, and it's probably too late to make plans for the summer of '15. However, the summer of Sweet '16 might be a player.
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13008] Fri, 16 January 2015 12:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Craig Hili
Messages: 188
Registered: October 2014
Senior Member
In. For sure. Absolutely.

Craig
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13009] Fri, 16 January 2015 12:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anthony Wolf
Messages: 86
Registered: July 2013
Location: Durango, CO
Member
Any idea of longest leg length and typical winds.
Anthony F. "Tony" Wolf, CTP
Managing Director
Safe Harbor Associates
817-821-7335
anthonyfwolf@me.com (anthonyfwolf@me.com)
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13011] Fri, 16 January 2015 13:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous is currently offline  Anonymous
Messages: 6600
Registered: August 2015
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Ross,
  You know I'm on board since our discussions last week.
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13012] Fri, 16 January 2015 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tim Carpay
Messages: 33
Registered: September 2013
Member
I would be interested.


Serial# 718SA

Timothy CarpayPresident
Gemini Air Group Inc.
www.geminiairgroup.com
480.991.5387 off
480.991.3373 fax
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13013] Fri, 16 January 2015 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dave Klain is currently offline  Dave Klain
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Registered: April 2011
Location: Fairfax, VA
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Administrator
I'm onboard as well. Do we want to set up a separate trip discussion forum?

Sent from my iThingy - Sorry for any typos.


MU-2 AOPA administrator
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13014] Fri, 16 January 2015 13:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ross Russo
Messages: 277
Registered: April 2011
Senior Member
Dave -- I think a separate trip discussion board would be a great idea.
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13015] Fri, 16 January 2015 13:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ross Russo
Messages: 277
Registered: April 2011
Senior Member
Tony -- I think the longest leg is somewhere around 675nm (based on my recollection of a long-ago discussion with Mike Laver). Typical winds in the summer aren't that bad. Mike Laver's made the crossing many times in many models of the MU-2, and he's still here, so it must be doable. <g>
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13016] Fri, 16 January 2015 13:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous is currently offline  Anonymous
Messages: 6600
Registered: August 2015
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------ Start of attached email. Subject: Re: [MU-2 list] Group Trip Across the Atlantic ------
I would definitely consider it. David Greene N44VR
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13017] Fri, 16 January 2015 13:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mciholas
Messages: 1588
Registered: April 2011
Senior Member
Ross Russo wrote:

Quote:
Just wondering if there's any interest in getting a bunch of us together and
making a trip across the Atlantic to do a bit of sightseeing in jolly old
Europe.

I am very interested.

Part of this is that I will be living in central England for 4 months
come fall of 2016. My wife will be a professor for one term at
Harlaxton College:

http://www.ueharlax.ac.uk/

We get to stay in the manor house. Think of it as Hogwarts (the train
to it even departs Kings Cross).

I am very curious what it would be like to bring the MU2 with me. My
primary concerns are dealing with IFR flying in Europe. Fuel prices
are remarkably cheap even after VAT (unlike 100LL). Finding a place
to park the airplane isn't too hard either. I just need to understand
how to file and fly EU IFR flights and how to handle customs, arrival,
etc, at the destination airports. I'm sure this is nothing terribly
complex, I just don't have any experience with it. Are there any good
guides or books on this?

So summer of 2016 would be perfect. If towards the end of summer,
then I might stay over there. The part of the trip I worry about most
is return in late December over the north atlantic. I can be very
selective about which day to minimize weather problems.

Jon Carlson recently did an Iceland trip, nice write up in the MU2 mag
this month. His input would be useful!

--
Mike Ciholas 812 962 9408
CIHOLAS, Inc 812 962 9401 fax
3700 Bell Road mikec@ciholas.com
Newburgh, IN 47630 http://www.ciholas.com
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13018] Fri, 16 January 2015 13:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mciholas
Messages: 1588
Registered: April 2011
Senior Member
What equipment do we need?

Do we need HF radios?

Do we need ADS-B out?

Do we need DME?

Do we need ADF?

Do we need life rafts?

Some of this will take time to prepare, so thinking about it now is worthwhile.

--
Mike Ciholas 812 962 9408
CIHOLAS, Inc 812 962 9401 fax
3700 Bell Road mikec@ciholas.com
Newburgh, IN 47630 http://www.ciholas.com
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13019] Fri, 16 January 2015 14:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Sutton is currently offline  Ken Sutton
Messages: 132
Registered: June 2013
Senior Member
Count me in.

From: Mu2list [mailto:mu2list-bounces@mailman.mu-2aopa.com] On Behalf Of Ross Russo
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 11:24 AM
To: mu2list@mailman.mu-2aopa.com
Subject: [MU-2 list] Group Trip Across the Atlantic



Just wondering if there's any interest in getting a bunch of us together and making a trip across the Atlantic to do a bit of sightseeing in jolly old Europe. Obviously, this would be a summertime adventure, and it's probably too late to make plans for the summer of '15. However, the summer of Sweet '16 might be a player.
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13020] Fri, 16 January 2015 14:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nicola Laurenzi
Messages: 265
Registered: July 2013
Senior Member
Whowwwwww! If you decide to come to  North of Italy and expecially in the Dolomiti Mountains (nice place to fly) it would be really awesome to meet all of you. 

Il venerdì 16 gennaio 2015, Ciholas, Mike <mikec@ciholas.com (mikec@ciholas.com)> ha scritto:
[quote]What equipment do we need?

Do we need HF radios?

Do we need ADS-B out?

Do we need DME?

Do we need ADF?

Do we need life rafts?

Some of this will take time to prepare, so thinking about it now is worthwhile.

--
Mike Ciholas                     812 962 9408
CIHOLAS, Inc                    812 962 9401 fax
3700 Bell Road                  [url=javascript:;]mikec@ciholas.com[/url]
Newburgh, IN 47630           http://www.ciholas.com
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13021] Fri, 16 January 2015 14:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nicola Laurenzi
Messages: 265
Registered: July 2013
Senior Member
Whowwwwww! If you decide to come to  North of Italy and expecially in the Dolomiti Mountains (nice place to fly) it would be awesome to meet all of you. 

Il venerdì 16 gennaio 2015, Ciholas, Mike <[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mikec@ciholas.com');]mikec@ciholas.com[/url]> ha scritto:
[quote]What equipment do we need?

Do we need HF radios?

Do we need ADS-B out?

Do we need DME?

Do we need ADF?

Do we need life rafts?

Some of this will take time to prepare, so thinking about it now is worthwhile.

--
Mike Ciholas                     812 962 9408
CIHOLAS, Inc                    812 962 9401 fax
3700 Bell Road                  mikec@ciholas.com
Newburgh, IN 47630           http://www.ciholas.com
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13022] Fri, 16 January 2015 14:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rand Snell
Messages: 107
Registered: April 2014
Location: St. Pete/Tampa - Washingt...
Senior Member
You bet! N19GA would enjoy a visit to her early haunts, and I'm looking to operate part of the year in Germany and Spain.

N19GA
N15VK
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13023] Fri, 16 January 2015 15:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ross Russo
Messages: 277
Registered: April 2011
Senior Member
Mike C -- I think the only things we'd need (going the northern route) are VHF and GPS. Not sure about the life rafts, but I think Transport Canada may require them. I have two at the flight schools that I'd be willing to lend people with high time engines. Smile
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13024] Fri, 16 January 2015 17:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joncarlson
Messages: 515
Registered: April 2011
Senior Member
Hi all,

When I did my Iceland trip, I did all planning myself, which is some amount of effort. Ultimately it is pretty do-able even for a first timer, but can require a lot of web searching. I think if one were to go to more exotic locales one may want a professional handler service in case of getting in trouble with local issues, but I figured I was going to be only traversing 1st world, English speaking countries, so I couldn't get myself into too much trouble. Not using a handler saved me something on the order of $5K.

It is some work to really track down what you are required to have by all the parties involved, specifically FAA, ICAO, NavCanada, Greenland and Iceland (and eventually Great Britain and onward). For the most part ICAO covers most of it, or defers to country of registration (so FAA for most of us).

Answers to the specific questions:

- HF Radios?

There are two routes which are legal to fly across the North Atlantic VHF only. Roughly, CYFB-BGSF-BIRK, which can be done at a relatively low altitude (don't recall floor off the cuff), and CYYR-BGBW-BIRK which is allowed VHF at FL250 and above. Otherwise you are supposed to have HF. There was a white paper from ICAO floating around that talked about allowing SatPhones as substitute, and there were ATC phone#s in place, etc. But legally you had to have HF with Selcal I believe. In practice, cell phone worked well for position reports (better than HF in practice near as I could tell).

- ADS-B Out?

I don't think ADS-B out is required, at least for the North Atlantic. Europe's an issue I didn't tackle. They may require mode S, IIRC.

- DME?

I think in Europe DME is required. GPS works fine of course. But I don't think it's a legal substitute.

- ADF?

ADF is required for northernmost reaches of Canada, and I don't think GPS was a legal substitute, but I didn't get that far north in Canada. Crossing the Atlantic, Greenland has only NDBs, IIRC (I don't think they have any VORs). Significantly, Narsarsuaq (BGBW) only has an NDB-DME approach. FWIW, the approach is in the GNS4/530W database, and the GNS units fly it just fine (while you monitor the ADF of course! Smile.

- Life rafts/survival equipment?

I rented a life raft from Far North Aviation (http://www.scottishfbo.com/survival.htm), based in Wick, but they allow pick up and drop off in Goose Bay (and Wick on the other end). They can also rent survival suits. That said, I wasn't certain they were strictly required for Part 91 flight in a twin turbine. NavCanada regs clearly require survival suits plus rafts for the Atlantic crossing in single engine aircraft, but their regulations are more lenient for twins that are able to maintain altitude. FAA regulation for oceanic overflight would apply for an N registered aircraft, and IIRC for part 91 it's not required.

An interesting additional PITA twist on the raft, which I only learned upon picking it up in Goose Bay, is that the raft requires being declared as an item of import for Canadian customs. This meant I was strictly required to have Canadian customs meet me at the aircraft to check in the raft at Goose Bay (I remember thinking I couldn't go into Iqaluit because of it also). Other than that, clearing Canadian customs would have been nothing more than calling the 800 number upon arrival. So the raft rental does impose an inconvenience penalty. I'm undecided whether I would do it again if I had it to do over. I also think it wouldn't do much pragmatic good without survival suits, and I was unwilling to make the whole family wear survival suits (I'd have had a rebellion on hand). So... to some degree having a twin turbine is probably the best option in the first place.

A couple web sites which were useful for pragmatic tips:

http://xpda.com/flyingtoeurope/ (growing a little old, but still lots of useful links and pragmatic advice)
http://220kts.com/ferry-flights/atlantic-ferry-flights/ (also useful pragmatic advice from a ferry pilot)

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/afs400/afs470/media/NAT.pdf (FAA North Atlantic resource guide)
http://www.icao.int/EURNAT/EUR%20and%20NAT%20Documents/NAT%20Documents/NAT%20Doc%20007/_NAT%20Doc007_Edition%202013%20with%20%20bkmrks.pdf (ICAO NAT manual)
http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca-publications/3-AIM-COM-E.pdf (NavCanada doc which contains lots of info on comm equipment required)
http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca-publications/5-AIM-RAC-E.pdf (NavCanada ops regulations, see section 11.0 for North Atlantic regs)


That's off the top of my head, happy reading!

-Jon C.


-Jon C.
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13025] Fri, 16 January 2015 17:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous is currently offline  Anonymous
Messages: 6600
Registered: August 2015
Senior Member
I'm thinking a handler handling a group of like aircraft would ultimately be realitively affordable. I know the TBM guys etc do a similar group trip so it'd be easy to line up something similar with that type of handler. I'm lazy, I don't want to turn it into a ton of busy work...takes all the fun out of it!
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13026] Fri, 16 January 2015 18:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joncarlson
Messages: 515
Registered: April 2011
Senior Member
Understood, though there’s an element of interest in learning the basic rules and regs for the various countries and knowing the issues involved oneself. Kind of tedious at times, but also some interest.

-Jon


From: Mu2list [mailto:mu2list-bounces@mailman.mu-2aopa.com] On Behalf Of ken murphy
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 2:43 PM
To: MU-2 Mailing List
Subject: Re: [MU-2 list] Group Trip Across the Atlantic

I'm thinking a handler handling a group of like aircraft would ultimately be realitively affordable. I know the TBM guys etc do a similar group trip so it'd be easy to line up something similar with that type of handler. I'm lazy, I don't want to turn it into a ton of busy work...takes all the fun out of it!


-Jon C.
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13027] Fri, 16 January 2015 18:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rick Veley
Messages: 326
Registered: December 2013
Location: Boerne, Texas
Senior Member
This trip is something that might just be of interest to me. I have made the crossing many times, but I was coddled by company dispatchers and flew nonstop using ETOPS regs. It would be a real eye opener for my wife and she showed an interest in it. I would need her anyway - to bring me my coffee and meals then verbally abuse and ignore me so that I feel like a normal crossing.
I would have to check with the company dispatchers, but there is a possibility that they could help out on some level.
The real twist involved would also be in getting more than 1 person to agree on a date going and coming and then where all the group went.
Personally I like the idea of having a raft and most likely also survival suits.


Rick
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13028] Fri, 16 January 2015 18:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous is currently offline  Anonymous
Messages: 6600
Registered: August 2015
Senior Member
I'd say everyone come up with a date to/from and then everyone does their own thing while there...people can group together if they'd like, make hops in Europe grouped in an aircraft etc or if someone just wants to enjoy Europe mostly just with the wife and kids then thats ok too. Trying to get everyone together for the whole stay would be a really tough deal and ultimately many wouldn't be doing what they really want to while there, too many compromises. I know my wife and kids would be all about seeing things there, they'd have zero interest in hanging out talking MU2 with everyone lol!
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13029] Fri, 16 January 2015 21:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Richard Weiner
Messages: 155
Registered: August 2014
Senior Member
Definitely interested!

Sent from my iPhone
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13030] Fri, 16 January 2015 22:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ross Russo
Messages: 277
Registered: April 2011
Senior Member
I don't know if any of you remember a thing called the Cayman Caravan. It was a trip from Key West, over Cuba, to Grand Cayman. Paul Bertorelli (Aviation Consumer, IFR Magazine) and I were the organizers, and we did it for around 15 years or so. Our biggest year had 125 airplanes making the crossing. I've had a bit of experience with groups making international overwater flights, albeit not over the North Atlantic.

In reality, there's no need for everyone to make the crossing at exactly the same time -- people can pair up (or gang up) based on their individual schedules. I'd want to go at the same times as Ken Murphy, 'cause he's a wild man and would probably buy drinks (once he's had a few). Oh yeah, Tim Stanley too.

Same goes for schedules once we're in Europe. Sharing our itineraries would make it pretty easy for people to get together for common destinations.

Returns are even easier, since we'll already have been through the same airports and procedures on the way east.

I'm thinking I'd like to take about two weeks for the whole trip.
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13031] Fri, 16 January 2015 23:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous is currently offline  Anonymous
Messages: 6600
Registered: August 2015
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Sounds good Ross but I believe it's your turn to buy lol!
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13102] Sat, 24 January 2015 23:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dave Klain is currently offline  Dave Klain
Messages: 1156
Registered: April 2011
Location: Fairfax, VA
Senior Member
Administrator
As discussed, I've set up the separate "trips forum" so that we can plan and discuss this trip (and others).

MU-2 AOPA administrator
Group Trip Across the Atlantic [message #13104] Sun, 25 January 2015 07:35 Go to previous message
Ross Russo
Messages: 277
Registered: April 2011
Senior Member
Very cool, Dave! Thanks!
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